Swimming Against the Tide: The Inclusive Entrepreneurship Journey of Vuyo Treffers

We've come to the end of Season 7 and we end it with a special episode featuring the creation of the first inclusive swimming cap.

Swimma Caps is founded with inclusion at heart. They are more than a product company, they are a catalyst for change. Since inception, the Swimma team have been challenging hair discrimination in many areas including South African schools and making waves in the Black community. 

Founder, Nomvuyo Treffers shares the impact of her work on people's lives, revealing how her brand is not just about accommodating hair, but about encouraging swimming despite limited access to pools for Black and Brown folks. We also unpack her expansion into the American market, the growth of her product line to include shower caps and swimming goggles, competitive markets, and how she remains authentic as her business grows.
 
 We also get personal with Nomvuyo, delving into her life beyond the business. From her supportive parents to her life mantra and her passion for swimming that bloomed late in her adult years, Nomvuyo's story is encouraging. Plus, we discuss the importance of social media presence for her business and where to get your hands on these inclusive swim caps.

LINKS AND MENTIONS

Instagram Account - https://www.instagram.com/swimma_caps/ 
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/swimmacaps 
Essence Festival of Culture - https://www.essence.com/efoc23-soko-mkt/ 
 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Hello and welcome to Shades and Leias. I am your host, guglianus Kasanarici, and today we are talking to the founder of Swimmer Caps, nomm Vuyo Trefas. Swimmer is a South African brand founded with inclusion at its heart and out of a mother's need to spend meaningful time with her children. Nomm Vuyo had always said no to swimming with her daughters because she could not find a swimming cap big enough to contain her long dreadlocks and anyone who's ever had dreadlocks will tell you how very law-hawng the hair takes to dry after contact with water. But, as you'll find out, nomm Vuyo likes an adventure and she wasn't going to allow this problem to rob her of quality time with her daughters.

Speaker 1: 0:50

And so she rolled up her sleeves and went to work. Nomm Vuyo caps arrived on the market at the height of heated media debates about natural hair and learners being expelled from schools for their large afros and other African hairstyles. We talk about that and just how this timing was helpful in the brand's success. We'll discuss how she's expanded the product line to include shower caps and swimming goggles, as well as managing an internationally distributed team. My favorite part was finding out just how creatively she lives and, without further ado, here is Nomm Vuyo telling her story. Please can you describe your work and the deeper meaning you attach to these activities?

Speaker 2: 1:33

Swimmer is a whistle product that developed with the inclusivity and diversity in mind. That's the reason that swimmer exists is because we wanted to fill the gap of making sure the people that were left out, like myself and many others like me, that they are included in products that are available out there. How we started is actually swimming caps, so that's what we do, and then we obviously expanded to shower caps and which also for the similar need. I mean similar requirement because, again, not one size fits all and also swimming goggles who would have thought that swimming goggles can be a huge thing? And one of the frustrations I used to have was that the straps were too short. I couldn't work comfortably over when my hair is in the swim cap and back and that would volume. So it's all the experiences and frustrations that I've been having, so trying to solve those.

Speaker 2: 2:43

So, that's what we do, and we started Swimmer with only two sizes, but which we've expanded the sizes because I very quickly realized that only two wasn't cutting it because there were so many in-betweens because our ear and length, and from toddlers to mid-age kids and teens and all of that, so I found that we needed to have more. So I'm proud to say that we cover most, most.

Speaker 1: 3:16

That's amazing, yeah, so tell me about your R&D process. I mean, there was probably nothing available at the time when you started in 2016. So how did you go about researching materials and who would manufacture, etc.

Speaker 2: 3:33

Yeah, so before 2016,. March, before 2016. It starts with an idea. It starts with thinking how come? Because I kept on searching and searching and searching, hoping that I would come across something that will help me. Because I was feeling like I cannot go out there and swim with my kids, who were quite small at the time, and obviously they wanted to be attached to me, of course, and I realized that I might. I'm going to lose the time, because kids, when they're small, they're like everything mommy, mommy. About that. I realized if I don't do something and they grow up to be teens, they would want to hang out with their friends. It's more than trying to beg me to swim with them. So that actually what inspired me to push. I think if it wasn't for my kids, who also have big hair, they would be no swimmer that I can say. For sure.

Speaker 2: 4:43

As a mother, we try and want to fix and make the world a better place. So, yes, it was a process, obviously, trying to find out and think how. Another thing I mean with my hair, which is the locks. Once my type of hair gets wet, I mean it stays to dry, it's not the entire swimming pool, you'll carry it on you. So I felt as well I needed something that not just like a shower shower or a duke or a plastic bag. I need something that would actually lock my hair so that if I can swim in the morning and get on with my day and go to work and whatever. So that's why it was also important to use like silicone, which is a material. Obviously that in itself is waterproof.

Speaker 1: 5:36

Was it easy to find partners or manufacturers.

Speaker 2: 5:40

No, nothing is ever easier. It was scary. At one point I said what if it doesn't? What if? What if? And it's an investment, because you have to spend a lot of money and especially to have molds created, it's really expensive. So, because I want to get my know, maybe a few more people, but I didn't know I would receive the support that I did receive. So it was really scary. I was losing people. But do I do it Do?

Speaker 1: 6:09

I not.

Speaker 2: 6:09

Yeah, of course, yeah, but in the end, yeah, that worked out. And here we are, seven years later.

Speaker 1: 6:20

Yeah, that's wonderful here and during those first years. Of course, you had a good response, but were you financing everything yourself? Did you try for a round of funding?

Speaker 2: 6:30

At the time I was running a business which I still own on the side, but that's where the money came from. So I had to take a loan from the other business to say, okay, I'm doing this, and then if it failed, and it didn't, and so we could pay back the loans and all of that. So that's actually how it started. But very soon Prima ran on their own again.

Speaker 1: 6:57

What's the other business? So this is a thing for you, serial entrepreneur, I've got to get to that.

Speaker 2: 7:07

The business that I own is, like it's 20 years old this year. It's got nothing to do with, obviously, swimming, but we started back in 2003, based in Cape Town, because I didn't grow up in Cape Town. But then we also soon realized that there's townships, I mean the communities where they lack services, like there was no internet cafe in Langa. I don't know if you know, langa, no Langa yeah, and they were applying for jobs or make at the time. You had to make copies to submit your CV or fax and all of that.

Speaker 2: 7:47

So, yes, so that's back then. Also internet, we still use what dial up, not like what we have today, and there were no smartphones. So that's how it started, like providing these internet services and office services. But the business transformed over the years because obviously the smartphones.

Speaker 2: 8:08

The demand was less, so I mean it did well. And the second one was an observatory which was about the student area mostly, but the business now took a form of voiceover, ip, which is a thing. Now Nobody has telephone lines anymore. So, yeah, because the calls are over the internet really. So that's still there, but I'm not that's exciting. Yeah, that's me when business hopping, but I'm not hopping, but I get excited about the adventures of business. So and then I was a photographer, full time, actually, when.

Speaker 1: 8:50

Oh, really Okay.

Speaker 2: 8:52

Yeah, yes. So I did photography full time just before I started swimmer not just before, actually, it was probably about seven years into it. It also just started from the love of photography. I always valued quality photographs. I also invest a lot of money into my cameras. And then I was. That person was always asked like I'm getting married, can you bring your camera? And this is before you get to the wedding.

Speaker 1: 9:25

I want to enjoy the wedding.

Speaker 2: 9:31

But also justify people not investing on like equipment, because love can be expensive, especially when you buy like professional cameras and that sort of thing. So I can start to make money, then increase my range of photography and then soon it was referrals, and then it was a full on business and even working in corporates and I mean, yeah, whole range of things, yeah, yeah, oh wonderful, I love that you double.

Speaker 1: 10:03

You know you try different things.

Speaker 2: 10:06

Yeah it's great.

Speaker 1: 10:07

It's great. It's a lovely, creative way to live here.

Speaker 2: 10:10

Yeah, yeah, I think it's hard. I'm a creative, I just in business I'm not. I don't enjoy the administration, part of it, even the conceptualizing or creative and going out there capturing moments or doing things like that. So that's me.

Speaker 1: 10:30

Right. So now you test this product on your friends and it's well received and you know there are more people interested. When and how did you realize that you had a viable business that could actually scale it?

Speaker 2: 10:43

actually was very early on. I was even shocked myself with the response that I received almost immediately, because I put out a tweet there and and then it just started like the response on Facebook and immediately and then it was picked up by the media in South Africa and I was being contacted for interviews from TV, magazines and radio because again at the time in South Africa there was a raging a hair debate.

Speaker 2: 11:15

I don't remember if you know that, yeah yeah, schools were an issue about learners here being an afro or braids. So I think it was coincidentally that Swimmer was launched around that time, because I mean, it was a long time coming. But the talk about around here, I think just also gave Swimmer that platform, because the media said actually here is someone with a product who's designed the product exactly for the hair that is seen as a problem by some institutions and stuff like that, and also South Africans who are now adults, who've gone through this system, at where schools are making issue of hair, they were saying, actually why is this? We went through these schools and we needed these caps when we were school. We needed to feel included. We quit swimming because I remember that too.

Speaker 2: 12:12

Yes, so it was such a deeper meaning because it was not just a product. I mean, not every day you sell a product and someone sends you. People take time to send me messages to say thank you, thank you for thinking of us, thank you for this product. I'm going to swim for the first time in so many years and all of that to me, that meaningful impact here.

Speaker 1: 12:36

Yes, I remember, like swimming. You know, when we were doing swimming in summer at school, all the black girls would suddenly have their period.

Speaker 2: 12:46

Yeah, no, exactly, and it's unfair. I always feel it's unfair on especially young kids because they cannot speak up, maybe in like what? In primary school, because I also didn't want kids to grow up thinking like my hair is too big or they shouldn't be having braids, whereas the problem was they kept not you, not your hair, not your braids, not your clothes, and so for me that was quite important and to a point like my daughters were like five and seven at the time, so they were swimming with swimmer caps and some trains that they swim at school and they would come home. That mama, my friend, said I must tell you, tell your mom, thank you.

Speaker 2: 13:30

Imagine a five-year-old sending that message like to me that even as I'm saying it, I get goosebumps because a five-year-old recognizing like tell your mom, thank you, because they feel like they finally have a cap that they don't have to fight with.

Speaker 1: 13:48

Oh my goodness, oh, the fight with the braids, oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, that's great and you know that's. It also leads me to our relationship to water as black and brown people. You know, I mean there's an issue of access to swimming pools and also, just you know, natural bodies of water. Access to that is very limited.

Speaker 2: 14:16

Yes, definitely.

Speaker 1: 14:17

Yeah. So have you observed any kind of changes since you've been in this business, where now there's, you know, one less layer that's preventing access? What's your experience been?

Speaker 2: 14:31

Okay, so definitely I've seen a shift since, I mean in the last seven years, because, okay, so there are so many layers, because most of growing up like, obviously, communities and townships and I don't know I mean, for example, take Langa as well there is one simple, but coming from the Eastern Cape, it's not a single one in the township, not a single one in the township.

Speaker 1: 15:03

Oh, I didn't realise that. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2: 15:06

Well, where I grew up? In Makaranda, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 15:09

Yeah, I went to Henei. I was at Henei, yes.

Speaker 2: 15:13

Exactly where I grew up, the one who Exactly so, yes, so for me. So that was my life. I did not even think about swimming as an activity because my school didn't. I went to a township school. So that access issue is still there and I think in South Africa it will still be an issue for years to come.

Speaker 2: 15:41

But then there's, there are some parents who bought black parents, who bought skips over the years. They said you know, I live in a suburb, I've got a swimming pool and only my kids are using the pool, but I can't swim. Oh yeah, exactly. So I like to skip because I'm going to learn to swim and I'm going to get into that water and enjoy the swimming pool in my house and some did know how to swim, but the hair was like I told myself that was my excuse, I'm not getting into the pool because of my hair. So it removed, so swimmer removed those layers. It encouraged people to go and learn to swim. It encouraged people to get into swimming again because these people are not in school and then people would also use it as a form of exercise maybe, whether it's gym or and also take part in competitions. So I've loved how also people were willingly sharing the reason behind their pictures.

Speaker 1: 16:46

Yes, yeah, now that's great. I'm glad to hear that there's a change and there's a shift. I actually interviewed I don't know if you know her Zandi the mermaid earlier on today.

Speaker 2: 16:55

Yes, zandi, it's blue hair. I do it that much. She's amazing.

Speaker 2: 17:01

Yes, and she's of course, also doing this inclusion work, trying to change perceptions around water yeah definitely Because I've also, and I think when I first saw her images and the people, I was also like, wow, deep down in the ocean where most of us are like Exactly More people so it means changing perceptions. So what's amazing is like even for me, for the first time this year, I actually had my first surfing lesson. Oh, wonderful oh my gosh Indeed, I wore a wetsuit, so I also kept shifting about the playoffs.

Speaker 1: 17:42

I still have to do that. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:46

Yeah, so yeah, we keep shifting. What can we do next? So definitely, the possibilities are endless.

Speaker 1: 17:55

Of course, yeah, yeah. Swimacaps founder Numbuyo Trefas is the guest today on Shades and Layers. Up next in our conversation we explore her experiences of expanding into the American market, the inevitable competition that has entered the market and staying authentic as your company grows. We also talk about her vision for Swimacaps as the company continues to expand its international reach. You've also expanded beyond South African borders. It was so exciting. I saw the lineup of businesses coming to Essence and I thought, oh my gosh, Swimacaps.

Speaker 2: 18:40

Oh yes, New Orleans yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:43

Yeah, so how did that come about?

Speaker 2: 18:47

I think it's thanks to, I guess to the internet, and that has given us a gift of making a world like a small place, because Swimacaps somehow was picked up around the time where I was getting all the media attention within South Africa, which I'm very grateful for. I don't take it for granted that they put this now a solution. I mean, they've been amazing collection of titles and that said, like what? Swimacaps has changed, and it was picked up by many other media outlets, including the USA, yeah, and so that's how I ended up. I think I was also featured in Essence Magazine, I think twice, so that I mean AfroPunk.

Speaker 2: 19:43

Yes so yeah, so, yeah, so they told the Swimmer story and then obviously Americans saw them and that's how actually I went to America after I started Swimmer, so that now I've been going every year because I have obviously distribution there. Now, yeah, because I wanted to bring it closer to the, because initially we were shipping from South Africa and it would take long and because all the shipping issues. So now we ship like it can take a couple of days, like yeah, like like sending it locally.

Speaker 1: 20:26

So that's right. Okay, so you have a distribution center there. Yes, so is your manufacturing all still in South Africa, or, you know, you've distributed it all around?

Speaker 2: 20:37

Well, yeah, it's not, not not all, so it's in different parts, or part of it and then part of it not, because obviously we don't only have the swimming caps but also the shower caps, which are actually made by.

Speaker 2: 20:50

I don't know if you know the history of South Africa with the factories like really closing down and people who had this little to to manufacture closed like, so the local community. So those shower caps that end up in the USA, they coming from improver communities of South Africa where people used to work and then they're out of jobs but they have the industrial machines and then they're coming together training others and stuff. For me that's also. It's so I tell them so they know when they like your caps, like especially if I go to essence like these caps are going like where they're going like in the countries. In some cases the people that make the caps have not traveled to these countries, so but I know what it means, even for me, where I know swimmer is in countries I've not yet been, but that means something that your product is traveling with and also empowering people.

Speaker 1: 21:56

you know doing that. Yeah, yeah, that's amazing.

Speaker 2: 22:01

That's that, to me that's that, and I know for the community that I work with they actually say thank you because to them it means that they're running, they're putting for the table, they're so much more to it than just like running, so it means it means a lot.

Speaker 1: 22:22

It's a lot more yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:23

Hands, those hands at a really special yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:27

So you came to the US with this product and the natural hair movement is, of course, still it will be with us for a very, very long time. There's still a lot. There's still a lot that needs to be done in that space, but I see that there are similar offerings now entering the market, which is fantastic, yeah you know, you know I, I, I, I.

Speaker 2: 22:51

I expected that there would be copycat, but but also, at the same time, I'll probably take it as a compliment because it shows like like my mission of people also finally leaching on to to what they saw in, like the response, because without them having seen, because some people were like how come nobody has ever thought of this? But obviously they're leaching on and writing because they know they see the response. So yeah, that was to be expected, but I still receive amazing support and so many others they say, no, we know we see others, but we know the original, that's who we tell and share. And and obviously, because that people see, like my story or the reason why is authentic, because it was not just a business opportunity.

Speaker 2: 23:53

I didn't even think it would be a serious business at all. I really thought it would be like I'll continue with my life and then I'll decide. Whoever wants to care can get it out, maybe from a boot of the car. So so for me it was never about that, but it was trying to, to make this product available to, to change maybe a few lives at a time. But then it grew to bigger than I expected.

Speaker 1: 24:21

Yeah, so that's also something I wanted to ask you about, because as you grow, things change and it's very hard to remain authentic and in a startup and you know, to keep that spirit that you started out with. So how is your experience of expansion, you know, especially now that you've added other products, how, how has that experience been for you, you know?

Speaker 2: 24:42

because I'm still so attached because, swimmer, to me it's almost like a baby you didn't want to let go so. So I still treat it with such baby gloves, I guess because I always think like also because I know I have to say it over and over again but how important it is to get a size that fits you. So I'm always connecting either with our stockings, who would also or stock our products, and to to also be able to give correct advice. So I'm so high and so on, because I'm more of a in a personal level, but we needed to get help, obviously. So we have that through our stockings, spreading it and also being listed in a major retail in South Africa, total Sports, so that that also helps.

Speaker 2: 25:44

That swimmer is out there seven days a week so people can either shop online or go to a shopping mall. So because one of the things, yes, in business, I didn't want to stop and relax. So now I've done a swimming cap and that everyone knows I have a swimming cap but similarly, like with shower caps, I feel I didn't have a shower cap that fits. So that's why I immediately went to designing three sizes at the time, so that we know we're not going to have one size and all two sizes. And likewise with the goggles you go and expand. You say I know there'll be others like me who needed it. And now it's just for the fun of it. We also have sleep caps, oh nice. So we also designed to have those in different sizes. So it's all ours. It's always like give people the option.

Speaker 2: 26:48

Yeah, so you've kind of found, you know, a methodology that you follow for each product basically and definitely it's not stopping because there are obviously plans in the pipeline where we need that. We know like we know our strategies and we know people like us, maybe that things that they need. So it doesn't stop. It hasn't stopped.

Speaker 1: 27:14

Yeah, yeah. So how many people are working at Swimmer?

Speaker 2: 27:18

now, Because some are just sitting in the US and some here in Cape Town, and some also not only like Stockes but as a distribution center for us. So it's like so many hands like that offer services, but in Cape Town the office is full at the moment. Unfortunately. We lost, so lost in like to death. Oh shame yeah. So that's why.

Speaker 2: 27:50

I yeah, sometimes I think, or counting in, but she was a big part of especially the packaging, like so many packages that travel the world. They were by, yes, but yeah, we saw we, since we were five and now we four.

Speaker 1: 28:09

So it's quite a. You guys have a big operation for such a small team.

Speaker 2: 28:15

Yeah, I think we're used to it. I guess it's like the system works because most of us are online you just get on your back and you go back when you go. And we also do have pop-ins in Cape Town branch, so we see people. We love to receive visitors. We actually just yesterday we had visitors from New Jersey oh nice, yes, they are on vacation in Cape Town and swimmer. They decided that swimmer would be their stock.

Speaker 1: 28:50

That's great. That's great Would you ever think? About having your own shop, like your own bricks and mortar shop for swimmer products.

Speaker 2: 29:01

No, just throwing it out there and asking. I know there's so much involved with that, and so for me I'm grateful that the product is out there. So, especially like this, this this post job that has our products, it puts it in different provinces like that, so that's a nice plus. Yeah, great.

Speaker 1: 29:31

Hey there, before we continue with the episode, please do me a favor and give Shades and Layers a rating and review on your favorite listening app. It will help others to find the podcast and join our pod squad. Five stars would be amazing, thank you. Now back to the episode. We are about to get into Numbuyo's personal story where she came from, what events were influential in her young life and the beliefs that shape her life. Now we will also get into the shades and layers rapid fire. So here we go, let's get into your personal story. Of course, you started swimming because you're a mom and you wanted to spend meaningful time with your children, but before that even ever happened, there are things that might have been memorable in your life, that have influenced how you turned out. So what would you say? It can be people, it can be incidents. When you look back, you think, oh, my goodness, it makes sense that I ended up here. You know what are those experiences that stand out?

Speaker 2: 30:37

I don't know, because I think my parents. I would say probably most people say inspired by parents, but I was the last born in my family. So, I was the. I mean, I was that child who became a child a little bit longer with probably a harder bit longer than my siblings, when you know it's the last one, your last baby.

Speaker 2: 31:08

So I've had amazing supportive parents who actually allowed me to do everything that I wanted to do, and I mean remember in school, like if I needed this kid for this dance, and I took part in so many different things, and they were always there buying this and that not only, but to encourage me. And so to me and my parents were quite hard workers and unfortunately at their time, when they were young, they didn't have the opportunities to study further, so they had little education. But so they also made sure that they would obviously take us as their children further than they ever dreamed of, and my parents would just do as go getters. My mother was a seamstress. I mean she could do that, she had a job, but she would make outfits and she would crochet, knit, so she did all these courses but she was such a creative.

Speaker 2: 32:11

So I think I was thinking the other day, when my kids were small, I would sit up like if they would be dressed up in school or a part with the theme I'll be make. I never had any. So some of the things, like I know how to use a needle and thread and bead from my mother, so that that to me, that's the creative side that I feel maybe I got and obviously the business was using so yeah. So I think that's that's from her, yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:46

Yeah, that's wonderful. And do you have any mantra or just some advice that you live by? Could be something you read or you were given by somebody who mentored you in the past.

Speaker 2: 33:02

Sometimes you don't even know. You, you being mentored? I guess? No, I think, because I've learned in life not to to, to live life according to others. I think that's actually my biggest thing, like what people expect you, or being put in a box. I remember in like probably when I was growing up. You, you, you don't want to act that way. You step out or try to fit in, so that's something I try not to do. If I, if that doubt comes to mind, actually that's exactly what I'm going to do because I don't want to confine myself. So if I doubt, like what they think of my big earrings, so I would be attending my, like maybe a school show at my kids school and I'll be feeling like dressing up with an African to talk and thoughts and whatever, and I think, yeah, but I'll be the only one. So, ok, so what? Even better? So, yes, exactly, so exactly. When you start doubting, like just be you out there, be authentically you and and and just only if according to to other people.

Speaker 1: 34:13

Yeah. So if you had to write a memoir, what would it be called and why?

Speaker 2: 34:20

The accidental swimmer yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Actually, the unlikely swimmer. That is the reason why I am doing swimming Because, like I mentioned my background growing up in a township just the streets of Hrini Makanda where there was not a single swimming pool I didn't grow up swimming. It was not part of my growing up, so I actually learned to swim as an adult. So how unlikely is that that I ended up with a business that initially started with swimming products and there's so much swimming involved in my life right now?

Speaker 1: 35:06

Yeah, I saw your video from Phuket too. I was like whoa.

Speaker 2: 35:14

So it's like sometimes I laugh at myself. It's like if I fetch that teenager, like that young guy, and it's like look at this, like this is you. So I think it was unlikely. Even my mother couldn't wrap her head around the whole swimmer business and swimming because it obviously was never something they ever thought of. Yeah, so I am a likely swimmer.

Speaker 1: 35:43

Nice. And if you took that book and turned it into a movie, who would you pick for the lead actress, and why?

Speaker 2: 35:53

Viola Davis yes, Because she is an absolute powerhouse. I think she can portray me like me in all stages of my life, even in the past and present and future, because she can transform her character. I mean, she's just as little as my favorite actresses, yeah, so I think I just love her.

Speaker 1: 36:21

And which famous black woman, living or dead, would you like to have over for dinner at your house?

Speaker 2: 36:27

Mama Miriam, my gamer, and I'm pretty nervous.

Speaker 2: 36:30

She's no longer alive, but to me I think her calm and powerful demeanor is what I found so interesting about her and that she was an activist who literally used her voice to voice out the injustices that in the suffering of the South African black people and POC people at the time, to a point that her outspokenness actually rendered her to be stateless because she was stripped of her South African nationality because she fought and spoke out against the apartheid.

Speaker 2: 37:11

So to me she is a powerhouse that we actually owe so much to her. I think even the fact that I mean here I read that she holds nine passports and she was given honorary citizenship in 10 countries because she was stateless, I mean I think she would be so interesting to have around the dinner table and she would have amazing stories to tell, amazing and painful at the same time. Because I know one of the things she wasn't allowed or couldn't come to bury her mother and because she was told the state police are waiting to arrest you. Even when she wanted to come back to South Africa, she knew she would end up in jail like the rest of the prisoners at the times. Even the languages she spoke, I'm sure she would be a bag of memories.

Speaker 1: 38:05

She had an interesting life. That's for sure Great. So I think that's it from me in terms of the interview. Is there anything? Else that you'd like to add that maybe you feel we didn't touch on.

Speaker 2: 38:17

No, no, no. Okay, we talked about that. Black people do actually swim. We didn't talk about that. Yeah, so I know it's just a myth and a stereotype. I know the shock, but it definitely is changing the game. And to be out there and kids, they're also competing, and I mean everywhere. I mean we swim for later and sometimes fitness, but we are there.

Speaker 1: 38:43

So we swim Out there in the water.

Speaker 2: 38:46

Yes, Great, so where?

Speaker 1: 38:50

can people find you if they want to connect with you, buy your products or just say hello?

Speaker 2: 38:56

So on social media platforms we are on Instagram Swimmer underscore caps, twitter, same swimmer underscore caps and then on Facebook Swimmer caps, and our website is swimmercapscom or swimmercouk.

Speaker 1: 39:14

And that is all from me this time around, and a heartfelt thanks to you, non-boyo, for sharing your story. This episode is also the last one for season seven. Shades and layers will be on a break until the new year, when we will bring you more exciting stories of black women entrepreneurs. Thank you for listening and I hope you will share this episode with a friend and also give us a rating and review wherever you listen. Thank you, I am Gudvarnas Kasanarishi, and until next time, please do take good care.